Questions regarding a propane conversion.

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Kylereidzilla
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Questions regarding a propane conversion.

Postby Kylereidzilla » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:00 pm

Hey guys, my first time posting in this neck of the woods/forum.

And as you can tell, I have been doing a little bit of homework on propane conversion.

I currently work at a shell station, which has a pump to fill up propane vehicles and cylinders. Filling up all these converted trucks has started to make me consider going about a conversion.

What I find appealing the most is that fact that the propane gas is half the price of normal gasoline today:

66 cents Canadian per litre / 2 dollars 50 cents Canadian per gallon for propane
V.S.
1 dollar and ~20 cents Canadian per litre / 4 dollars ~ 50 cents a gallon (Canadian gas prices... sigh :roll: )

Not to mention I can fill up my truck as I please, as I am already fully certified to handle compressed gas.

The conversion that has the most appeal to me would be a dual-fuel setup, giving me the ability to switch between Gasoline and Propane with the flick of a switch.

These setups appear to be quite simple, as the only modification the the engine is a modified carburetor and a fuel cut-off system. I was already preparing for a weber carb swap, so why not go a little bit further?

Other then that, I can just make some mounts for removable 40 lb forklift cylinders, or even a larger 100-150 litre tank if I can get my hands on one.


What I want to know from you guys is if any of you have decided to take this route, and if there are any available kits specifically for an isuzu truck, or even ones that will fit with an adaptor plate.

Thanks in advance guys! Any advice is great advice!
'86 P'up Spacecab LS 2.3 - Repainted in Claret Red - Sold
'99 Nissan Stagea RS Four S - Modified running 17 lbs of boost.. 'till it blew up
'95 Trooper Limited - On 33x12.5's
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kravdraa
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Re: Questions regarding a propane conversion.

Postby kravdraa » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:08 am

Hello,
Do you get similar fuel economy with propane versus gasoline?
Eric
81 Long bed PuP 2.2 Diesel
Using Bio-D

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trooper T/diesel
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Re: Questions regarding a propane conversion.

Postby trooper T/diesel » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:45 pm

its LPG not CNG right? BIG difference in the cost of the tanks. but you likely know all this, but for the sake of info ill say it.


for NG the tanks are spend-y early set ups have a rated presser of 3,000 later years have a 3,600 psi rating.
unlike LPG NG would have to be SUPER COOLED to turn to a liquid that's how they move NG on ships is SUPER COOLING. but for auto use they compress it to high pressers.
MPG loss on CNG is miner, hears one auto in the USA that was sold with a duel fuel CNG set up..
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySidePopUp.jsp?column=1&id=19273


LPG can be an ordinarily LPG tank meant for road use no more then 200ish psi on the hottest days of the year best i know.
MPG loss is around 3 to 6 mpg hears one auto in the USA that was sold with a duel fuel LPG set up.
even though the mpg is half of the CNG auto, the mpg loss is much more so if it was 30 mpg on gas the mpg loss would be higher....
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySidePopUp.jsp?column=1&id=19254


not that it would be easy but mixing the 2.6L block with the 2.3L head it would take compression from around 9/1 to 10/1 helping take advantage of the 110+/- octane of LPG
one thing that has crossed my mind is ether go dedicated LPG or duel fuel LPG and E85 but there's more then one issue with this NO1 is the availability of the fuels. :( :(
one other thing that crossed my mind is make the engine so it could run on 92 octane gas in a area where E85 is not available i think that would be a MAX compression of around 11.5/1 but doing so would make the engine impossible to run on low grade moose ___ gas
soot fart wrote:if god had intended for us to drive automatics, he wouldn't have given us two feet


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trooper T/diesel
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Re: Questions regarding a propane conversion.

Postby trooper T/diesel » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:40 am

ok did a little math....using rounded numbers

driving 100 miles at 30 mpg and a cost of 4.50 a gal is $15.00

driving 100 miles at 24 mpg and a cost of 2.50 a gal is $10.41
even if you take the mpg number to 18 its still $13.88 to drive the same 100 miles, that's still more then a dollar cheaper per hundred miles with a mpg loss of 12. :shock: :shock:

the point at which the $15.00 in gas at $4.50 a gal, 30mpg to drive the 100 miles. becomes cheaper then propane at $2.50 is about 16.75ish mpg
soot fart wrote:if god had intended for us to drive automatics, he wouldn't have given us two feet


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Kylereidzilla
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Re: Questions regarding a propane conversion.

Postby Kylereidzilla » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:36 pm

Hmm, those are some very useful calculations there!
Not to mention that 4 dollars 50 a gallon is for our regular 87 octane gas, considering that I'm running with advanced timing, so my engine runs on a blend of 89 and 91 octane fuel, then we're talking around 5 dollars and up!

Although I am just throwing around the propane conversion as a possible project to tinker around with, I would only really have it setup as a backup fuel system for extended range.

Then again... I could always get my hands on a diesel... :mrgreen:
'86 P'up Spacecab LS 2.3 - Repainted in Claret Red - Sold
'99 Nissan Stagea RS Four S - Modified running 17 lbs of boost.. 'till it blew up
'95 Trooper Limited - On 33x12.5's
'13 Kawasaki KLR 650 - OD green War Pig!

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Kylereidzilla
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Re: Questions regarding a propane conversion.

Postby Kylereidzilla » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:40 pm

I guess the modded carby propane injection method isn't the most efficient way to power the engine. I've seen the figures from a properly done, dedicated propane system, be it carburatted or fuel injected pull off the same mileage as its gasoline counterpart. Unfortunately those systems get pretty pricey!
'86 P'up Spacecab LS 2.3 - Repainted in Claret Red - Sold
'99 Nissan Stagea RS Four S - Modified running 17 lbs of boost.. 'till it blew up
'95 Trooper Limited - On 33x12.5's
'13 Kawasaki KLR 650 - OD green War Pig!

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trooper T/diesel
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Re: Questions regarding a propane conversion.

Postby trooper T/diesel » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:19 am

the issue ive ran in too is yes i know of one place that sells LPG for $1.75 a US gal for road use, or a BBQ don't matter.

ive got a common route and its about in the middle, to make it so that i can do say two round trips 150 miles id need ehh 8 us gal min
that would be 30.2 L i know id want min 2X that if not more if i could...
a propane fired auto with a 400 mile range could go any where in the country with a little planning....hmm

trubble is all the other places to fill are any where from 3.00 to the same price as the budget 87 gas so the gane is rather little when you go any where but that one local fill up spot.
granted i could run two autos, save the cooking oil and use it on long drives in the diesel, and use the LPG in a DDer set up with the hybrid 2.6/2.3L engine.


the two things that scares me is the heavy road salt up north, and putting the tanks in a spot where the salt could eat thru it over time.... :shock: :shock:
and any inspections up there, what they would do in the case of finding a non stock fuel system.
soot fart wrote:if god had intended for us to drive automatics, he wouldn't have given us two feet


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hearsthe
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QuantumRift
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Re: Questions regarding a propane conversion.

Postby QuantumRift » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:16 pm

Get some of that spray-on rubberized coating stuff and coat or paint the tanks to prevent corrosion. Simple.



trooper T/diesel wrote:the issue ive ran in too is yes i know of one place that sells LPG for $1.75 a US gal for road use, or a BBQ don't matter.

ive got a common route and its about in the middle, to make it so that i can do say two round trips 150 miles id need ehh 8 us gal min
that would be 30.2 L i know id want min 2X that if not more if i could...
a propane fired auto with a 400 mile range could go any where in the country with a little planning....hmm

trubble is all the other places to fill are any where from 3.00 to the same price as the budget 87 gas so the gane is rather little when you go any where but that one local fill up spot.
granted i could run two autos, save the cooking oil and use it on long drives in the diesel, and use the LPG in a DDer set up with the hybrid 2.6/2.3L engine.


the two things that scares me is the heavy road salt up north, and putting the tanks in a spot where the salt could eat thru it over time.... :shock: :shock:
and any inspections up there, what they would do in the case of finding a non stock fuel system.
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Re: Questions regarding a propane conversion.

Postby iPupGary » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:53 pm

Not to get too political, but the reason natural gas and similar gases can be cheaper is because it is a local market. It is difficult and expensive to export these gases. This is why you will see a price advantage over an exportable fuel like gasoline. As our federal reserve prints money out of thin air to support our out-of-control government spending in the US, these huge trade deficits (dollars) can’t come back and bid up the price of natural gas because these gases are not exportable for the most part. A very small amount of natural gas is exported today and it is expensive to do so as I mentioned earlier. The industry is trying to bring down the cost of liquefied natural gas and export more. Until then enjoy the price advantage. You need to make sure you consider the energy density differences in the cost comparison. There is less energy in propane and natural gas than gasoline. Here is a good article on energy density:

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf

ENERGY DENSITY COMPARISONS

Gasoline 9000 Wh/l 13,500 Wh/Kg

LNG 7216 Wh/l 12,100 Wh/Kg

Propane 6600 Wh/l 13,900 Wh/Kg

Ethanol 6100 WH/l 7,850 Wh/Kg

Liquid H2 2600 Wh/l 39,000* Wh/Kg

150 Bar H2 405 WH/l 39,000* Wh/Kg

Lithium 250 Wh/l 350 Wh/Kg

Flywheel 210 Wh/l 120 Wh/Kg

Liquid N2 65 Wh/l 55 Wh/Kg

Lead Acid 40 Wh/l 25 Wh/Kg

Compr Air 17 Wh/l 34 Wh/Kg

STP H2 2.7 Wh/l 39,000* Wh/Kg

-Gary
1982 Chevy Luv 2wd short bed diesel w/ veggie conversion (under construction)
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Kylereidzilla
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Re: Questions regarding a propane conversion.

Postby Kylereidzilla » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:25 am

That is a very interesting article!
Since I had started this thread, I had actually come across an 88 Trooper with a 2.6 and a 5 speed, converted to a dual fuel gasoline/LPG setup, he was selling it for just 1200 bucks.
If it wasn't for my space conflicted driveway, I would have jumped on that ASAP! :cry:

To add to the theme even more, my new line of work, at IMW industries based here in Chilliwack, has me assembling and fabricating Natrual gas compressors and filling points for industrial and public fueling around the globe.
Not only does this appeal to my need to tinker and work on some very interesting machinery, I've acquired some insight into the direction of the natural gas industry as a whole, and the activity here in B.C. and Alberta is on a rapid increase from where it once sat several years ago.

Not to mention the fleet of CNG converted company trucks! :mrgreen:

My town used to have natural gas filling stations, and every now and then a CNG converted car or truck from this timeline will appear on craigslist. But now there are talks of bringing back CNG as a viable option for fueling here in B.C. , which would make perfect sense, considering they could be manufactured locally!
'86 P'up Spacecab LS 2.3 - Repainted in Claret Red - Sold
'99 Nissan Stagea RS Four S - Modified running 17 lbs of boost.. 'till it blew up
'95 Trooper Limited - On 33x12.5's
'13 Kawasaki KLR 650 - OD green War Pig!

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Re: Questions regarding a propane conversion.

Postby soot fart » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:12 am

Not to get too political Gary? Really? Thanks for the Fox news/tea party observations. And please pray tell, what does your hero Rush have to say. But please don't get too political. Sheesh!!! Jerry