Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

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joeshmoe44883
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by joeshmoe44883 »

You know i only live an hour and a half from you, and have 2 c223t? I can look at how all mine are routed, pretty sure they all T together at the pump and go to the tank in one line from there.
Another option would be to T all the return lines into the inlet line of the pump, or filter if your worried about recirculating any contaminates. This would save running a seperate line, as well as providing a positive fuel suction on the return circuit. Would also be easier on the pump since it wont have to pull ALL the fuel from the tank.
I believe the vw guys do this...
2 86 Trooper II diesels, one 4 door the other 2, both projects.
86 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer with factory 2.1L turbo diesel.
05 Jeep Liberty Limited with 2.8L diesel (totaled)
06 Chevy Silverado with duramax
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee ecodiesel
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DieselJeep
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by DieselJeep »

We do need to meet up sometime Sir.

I'd also be interested in any serviceable C223T IP's ya can spare. haha

That's what Jedi Master Paul in Cali said as well. I will probably route the two barbs together to the main return, and the injector chain return into that. I thought it might be easy, but I wanted to be sure something didn't come back to bite me.

Paul also suggested my cold start issues were probably GP related. I agree and wouldn't surprise me, as the NAPA "50 Amp" black plastic push button momentary I had wired in was an absolute piece of junk that began to fail a few weeks into service. Was fairly pricey too, as I was looking for something with high amperage for long service life on a 40 amp circuit. So much for that. Contact was spotty from the word go, and a couple times stuck on. I bet all four aren't working. Would explain how it sounds when it is cranked cold. Probably only one or two still cycling. :roll:

New Thermoking 44-2922 10.5V from Thermobyproducts on the way.
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Paul
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by Paul »

Chris--

Trying to run the glow plugs from a switch on the dash board is almost certainly going to fail. The inrush current on the (5volt) plugs is around 120 amps and then tapers down to around 40 amps after they heat up. That much current will spoil an ordinary switch very quickly. Also the length of the wiring into the cab will diminish the current to the plugs, making them lazy. The wiring needs to be 10 AWG and should be as short as you can make it from the battery. Use a relay rated for this service to do the switching (I see glow plug relays on ebay frequently).

Whoops! I see you are using or intend to use 10.5 volt glow plugs. These will draw less current and will take more time to heat up. But my comments above still apply, especially re the dash board switch and long wiring.

Hope this helps--

Paul
'84 P'UP 2 wd diesel, 5 spd with 0.78 fifth gear and differential back to 3.73.
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DieselJeep
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by DieselJeep »

Paul wrote:Chris--
Trying to run the glow plugs from a switch on the dash board is almost certainly going to fail. The inrush current on the (5volt) plugs is around 120 amps and then tapers down to around 40 amps after they heat up. That much current will spoil an ordinary switch very quickly. Also the length of the wiring into the cab will diminish the current to the plugs, making them lazy. The wiring needs to be 10 AWG and should be as short as you can make it from the battery. Use a relay rated for this service to do the switching (I see glow plug relays on ebay frequently).
Whoops! I see you are using or intend to use 10.5 volt glow plugs. These will draw less current and will take more time to heat up. But my comments above still apply, especially re the dash board switch and long wiring.
Hope this helps--
Paul


Paul-
Your advice and input is always welcome and appreciated Sir! Extra set of experienced eyes and brain often helps see the overlooked! The resistance according to the length and gauge of wire is an excellent consideration.

The GP's are 10.5V c201 Gp's. Replacements on way are as well.
The HD toggle I am using is rated for 240V, with amperage rating increasing as voltage is dropped, according to the markings on the side of the toggle. Was like 20amp @ 240V, 40 amps at 120V, so I imagine way up there @ 12V. Maybe 400 amps at 12V? haha

I am using a heavy gauge wire(unknown, free, and probably 10GA, like 9 or 10 mechanical pencil lead sized core wires) from the battery to the switch, to the buss bar, and admit the total length is probably over 6 foot total. So the overall length could very well be an issue, and I believe you are correct in saying that a much shorter supply wire would be much better.

I am using literally a semi sized group 31 battery, with 925CCA, and I believe a 120 or 180 minute reserve.

Another important consideration I wanted to consult you about is the governor inside of my C223T IP. Being as the 4FB1 can scream at 5,400RPM, and makes peak power there, wouldn't I lose 1,000+ RPM's if I installed the C223T IP as is?
If this is the case, I would rather wait to install this IP until after I acquire a VW IP for the lever style CSD, and install the 4FB1 governor weights. Also, have had thoughts about the "AAZ" camplate... I want to install this IP once. Hate to disassemble and mod a probably fully functional IP, but I don't want to lose the insane 4FB1 redline. If I have to take it apart to change governor weights, might as well do all the mods while I'm in there.

Any advice and input you have is very welcome and appreciated.
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DieselJeep
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by DieselJeep »

Have been concerned about using the Garrett, as the quality and reliability has come into question the last 10-15 years. Even the overhaul and upgrade kits, which are pricey. So, what did I find randomly for $70 at the local pick your part? The CLEANEST used turbo I have EVER seen!! A very low mileage Saab 9-3 sourced MHI TD04HL-15T turbo, shaped and sized like the Garrett gt17!! ZERO scoring on either scroll!! ZERO!!! ZERO Shaft play!!
MHI turbos are INEXPENSIVE to overhaul, HIGHEST quality parts(overhaul kits are still made in Japan) and known as some of the most reliable, longest service life turbos available, especially in industrial and agricultural industries!!!! Even the compressor housing casting is NOTICEABLY higher quality than the Garrett!
Probably the best junkyard score of my life:
Cleanest used turbo I have EVER seen. ZERO scoring on either housing! NO play in shaft!
Cleanest used turbo I have EVER seen. ZERO scoring on either housing! NO play in shaft!
A GT17 sized 40MM inlet on the turbine? Yes please!
A GT17 sized 40MM inlet on the turbine? Yes please!

Ignore the 428CFM note
Ignore the 428CFM note

Oh. And what I did on Christmas, being single, and so far from fam:
The temporary olive was a natural. Looks like old military inventory, yes?
The temporary olive was a natural. Looks like old military inventory, yes?
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joeshmoe44883
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by joeshmoe44883 »

The mhi turbos are good turbos,i just tore down a td025m to clean and polish the internals. There built heavier than garrett but dont spool as fast because of the added bulk. That particular turbo looks like it could be a good replacement for the c223t turbos but would take more fabbing than using the 1548.

If you want to clean a turbo i just got done using my new favorite technique, let the parts soak in a crock pot of straight anti-freeze for 24 hours. All the soot, carbon buildup and sludge literally wipes off under hot water. I have NEVER gotten a turbine wheel clean until now. Now it looks NEW! I didnt get any before pics of the parts but heres some; the compressor has 2 unfinished blades in this pic.
image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

image.jpeg


Ill get a pic of the turbine wheel in a bit, im in the middle of polishing everything.
2 86 Trooper II diesels, one 4 door the other 2, both projects.
86 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer with factory 2.1L turbo diesel.
05 Jeep Liberty Limited with 2.8L diesel (totaled)
06 Chevy Silverado with duramax
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee ecodiesel
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DieselJeep
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by DieselJeep »

joeshmoe44883 wrote:The mhi turbos are good turbos,i just tore down a td025m to clean and polish the internals. There built heavier than garrett but dont spool as fast because of the added bulk. That particular turbo looks like it could be a good replacement for the c223t turbos but would take more fabbing than using the 1548.

If you want to clean a turbo i just got done using my new favorite technique, let the parts soak in a crock pot of straight anti-freeze for 24 hours. All the soot, carbon buildup and sludge literally wipes off under hot water. I have NEVER gotten a turbine wheel clean until now. Now it looks NEW! I didnt get any before pics of the parts but heres some; the compressor has 2 unfinished blades in this pic.
image.jpeg
]

Ill get a pic of the turbine wheel in a bit, im in the middle of polishing everything.


Sounds like an idea. For disassembled, carbonated and uber grimy parts I personally like oven cleaner, followed by engine degreaser.

I am not taking this turbo apart. It is literally almost perfect. No need to risk anything by doing so.

I have read and heard they are about the best out there. As far as spool, the size must not be well translated in my pics. With the 40MM and/or 1.5" turbine inlet(only one I have ever seen on a MHI TD04), the exhaust port area being @ a 1.5" ID circle, and the turbine scroll itself being even SMALLER than the tb2531/GT17 I already have(better for diesels, probably < .48 scroll), a slightly BIGGER compressor wheel than the TB2531/GT17(more air sooner in relation to smaller turbine, which diesels need for earlier and big boost) and a zero compromise, well calculated, designed and built manifold(VERY stubby 4-2-1 tri-Y header with "collector" exact size of primaries,and complimentary cylinder mating), I seriously doubt I will have any "lag". But anything is possible. :mrgreen:
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joeshmoe44883
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by joeshmoe44883 »

I agree not to tear that one apart,it's incredibly clean. I try to stay away from harsh chemicals, especially oven cleaner yuck. Will be neat to watch the turbo build.
2 86 Trooper II diesels, one 4 door the other 2, both projects.
86 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer with factory 2.1L turbo diesel.
05 Jeep Liberty Limited with 2.8L diesel (totaled)
06 Chevy Silverado with duramax
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee ecodiesel
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DieselJeep
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by DieselJeep »

joeshmoe44883 wrote:I agree not to tear that one apart,it's incredibly clean. I try to stay away from harsh chemicals, especially oven cleaner yuck. Will be neat to watch the turbo build.


Yard score of my life. I understand that to be sure! haha :lol:
Thanks man. This Heep is my masterpiece to date in so many ways. Not even finished, and already has brought me 3 restomod jobs for the Spring. She is doing the work(economical, reliable, easy and cheap to maintain/daily driver/marketing tool) as planned so very well.

And that lil' 4FB1 is the core of her being such a unique and reliable build. Glad this community is so dang helpful and full of great knowledgeable folks willing to share info, parts and cheer each other on! Even if I don't own a C223, ya welcomed me warmly, and taught me a lot.

All of ya I appreciate you very much! :mrgreen:
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cocheeze
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by cocheeze »

I have never seen a used turbo that looks that good. Not ever. That Saab's previous owner must have towed the thing behind an RV or else just never driven fast enough to spool it up or something... crazy.

On a site note: regarding your glow system, if you prefer the switch because it gives you the ability to change your glow time depending on conditions (I don't blame you as it comes in really handy) then you can just ignore this, but if you want some information about the automatic VW diesel GP relay based system that I use with all of my elsbett conversions, I would be happy to send you some part numbers and info. It works great with my 11.5v plugs and if I remember correctly the parts cost is less than $40 total (including wiring) to set the whole thing up.

Anyways, congrats on the junkyard score!

Casey
His:
'81 Isuzu P'up Diesel 4WD (310k)
'87 Isuzu P'up Spacecab Turbo Diesel (228k)
'81 Isuzu I-Mark Diesel (220k)
'81 Isuzu I-Mark LS Diesel (219k)

Hers:
'82 Isuzu I-Mark Diesel (135k)
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DieselJeep
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by DieselJeep »

Joe-
I was considering what you mentioned about plumbing into the supply line, as I like the concept. However, the thing that drew a negative for me is the IP relies on internal case pressure for timing. As the IP would be literally partly drawing from itself, it might possibly lower case pressure. Probably not much, if at all, but even a slight variation might be enough for a degree or two, being as the vane pump is trying to force the fuel out of a tiny, precise hole to build case pressure. If I remember correctly internal pressure is @ 3PSI. Even a slight suction might compound itself into a fair timing issue. Have you tried this, or can you share a link to someone who has?

Casey-
Thank man. The 9-3 convertible was UBER sanitary. I completely forgot to check the mileage, but it was a fastidious owner to be certain.

I'd be interested to hear what ya have done and how it works. As inexpensive as you say, I *may* follow your example. I admit though, I am trying to keep everything as bare bones simple as possible, especially concerning electronics, with a huge aversion towards adding anything more complicated than my self regulating alternator. Well, aside from a radio/MP3/head unit, eventually. So depends on how the parts you used work. If circuit boards of any type, no.
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by joeshmoe44883 »

Im not sure what the case pressure is set at, but members have put inline pumps supplying 10psi and havent had adverse effects. So i seriously doubt plumbing the return back into the inlet will cause any problems. It wont pull any vacuum on the valve, it will just take away whatever pressure would normally be pushing back on the valve. If anything i would say your pump would run better since itll be able to run with no restriction.
2 86 Trooper II diesels, one 4 door the other 2, both projects.
86 Jeep Cherokee Pioneer with factory 2.1L turbo diesel.
05 Jeep Liberty Limited with 2.8L diesel (totaled)
06 Chevy Silverado with duramax
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee ecodiesel
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by DieselJeep »

Hmmn.
I like the idea, but will have to ponder it more.

On a side note,
I am looking for help with a fun "official" name for the Jeep project.
It's a military themed project "Heep" overall. The unique aspects are a vintage "Caterpillar" themed diesel engine, that will be turbo'ed soon. I have a vintage disco mirror ball hanging from the rear view(out of place but will probably stay). A WWII vintage .50 cal round on the trans shifter, and a pineapple grenade on the transfer case shifter.

A few friend's suggestions: Col. (or Capt.) Clatter, Battle Rattle, Clatter Wagon.
Any/all suggestions/input/ideas welcome!
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by DieselJeep »

After my $40+ lesson learned ordering GP's from Thermo-By-Products, the threads being machined incorrectly, and the sales people treating me like I am ignorant putting non stock GP's in my diesel, I did some poking around for a local supplier for 10.5V GP's.

Bad, bad call, Thermo-By-Products.

The CORRECT NGK cross reference for ThermoKing 44-2922 is NGK Glow Plug (Y-107-1), Advance Auto Part No. 6625. NGK makes high quality spark plugs, but I have no experience with their GP's. However, these are the latest ceramic element GP technology, that should heat up fast and should be reliable.

And @ an very inexpensive $7 apiece after tax, and available locally, for after sale service and warranty, I will give them a shot and report my findings.

Wanted to document this...

Oh. Heep has been crazy reliable. Only once did she scare me by almost not firing during a very, very cold night. The starter was barely starting to slow. I let everything cool while a run to a gas station, gave her a tiny, tiny, TINY sniff of ether to the filter element, and she fired right up, no GPs. The ONLY time I used it. I avoid it like a religion for the sake of not ballooning the tips of the GP's. Bumped up the IP timing @ 2-3* advanced, and zero issues since, even not pre heating the last 3 weeks or so. Glad to see temps warming now...

Also happy to report I am still only using @ $20 of fuel a month, all driving. Probably near 40MPG in a 4x4 barn door, with heavy 31" tires.
Still N/A, stock IP. LOVE my 4FB1 powered CJ5.
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Re: Isuzu 4FB1 overhaul/resto-mod for CJ5 conversion

Post by DieselJeep »

Bah.
So the GP's from Advance are 10.5V, and very close. But seem wrong.
Thread is @ 2x longer than the originals I ordered way back(and can't find original invoice), and the heating tube won't thread in. I am unfamiliar with the prechamber design, but I would think the extra thread might interfere as well?incorrect plugs, but both sets we marked

So in TBP defense, I ordered the 44-2922, both marked PI-42, and my original set threads in and out no problem. So WHY the fuss with the new plugs?

Almost seems like the heating element is @ 1 MM wider in thickness when a side by side comparison is made. That can't be carbon polishing the heating tube as I attempt to thread it in. VERY tight, I COULD force it, but it really feels wrong.

The google results I am getting now for a C201 10.5v gp are NOW pointing to a Y-103K (6325)GP that has a much shorter overall length, and a much shorter distance between tip, seat, and thread in depth. I had ordered the Y-107-1 (6625) GPs, which are what my results on Google suggested LAST week.

Uhg.

Here is a NGK page of 10.5V GP's. I have to go in to work so my research time is cut short. If anyone has time to help out finding the correct NGK 12V conversion, I would appreciate the help. Trying to find a 12V GP anyone can go to Advance and order, that will thread right in, seat correctly, and give excellent service life.

Maybe I am being over cautious, but I don't think so. They should thread right in with a minimum of fuss.

https://www.ngk.com/Glow-Plugs-NGK-c594.aspx
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