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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:24 pm 
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Location: Central NC (High Point)
Hi guys!

I don't have a manual, so I'm just guessing here. Do I move the top of the IP away from the engine or toward it to advance the timing? (I'm guessing "away".)

Thanks!

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Brian

2004 VW Beetle TDI - 65k mi.
2000 VW Jetta TDI - 147k mi.
1982 MB 300D Turbo - 336k mi.
SOLD - 1986 Isuzu P'up (NA) - 277k (+) mi.
1985 MB 300D Turbo - 183k mi.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:24 am 
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I would call it opposite to the direction of the engine rotation...I think that's right. On my 2.8 since the engine rotates clockwise and the pump is mounted on the LH side, that ends up being "toward".

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:33 pm 
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perkhouse wrote:
Hi guys!

I don't have a manual, so I'm just guessing here. Do I move the top of the IP away from the engine or toward it to advance the timing? (I'm guessing "away".)

Thanks!


TO ADVANCE THE TIMING PULL THE PUMP TOWARD THE PASS SIDE , BUT BE CAREFULL OF THE LINES , JERRY


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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:00 am 
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JLEMOND wrote:
TO ADVANCE THE TIMING PULL THE PUMP TOWARD THE PASS SIDE , BUT BE CAREFULL OF THE LINES , JERRY


Thanks! This is what my intuition told me and I did get quite a bit more power, but the (black) smoke is about the same. Is that just the nature of a NA diesel? (My other vehicles have turbos and I don't see nearly as much wasted fuel going into the atmosphere.)

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Brian

2004 VW Beetle TDI - 65k mi.
2000 VW Jetta TDI - 147k mi.
1982 MB 300D Turbo - 336k mi.
SOLD - 1986 Isuzu P'up (NA) - 277k (+) mi.
1985 MB 300D Turbo - 183k mi.
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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:34 am 
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Location: Durham,NC
Hello Brian, did you clean and set your injectors?
crossbones


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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:46 pm 
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Location: Central NC (High Point)
crossbones wrote:
Hello Brian, did you clean and set your injectors?
crossbones


Yes, and I set them a little higher (1600 psi) than you normally do because I'm using UCO (WVO) blended with diesel (about 30% VO to 70% diesel). I remember reading that Elsbett suggests increasing popoff pressure from 5-15 bar for VO, so 1600 psi is almost +7 bar from your recommended 1500 psi.

I should probably start a new thread about what's happening lately, but to make it short... I'm getting a pretty strong tick (sometimes it's a hard knock) after the engine is up to operating temp and the rpms are around 2000-2500. (I don't have a tach, so that's a guess-timate.) So, knowing that too much advance can cause excessive knock, I first tried retarding it a bit, but that didn't help the knocking at all and I lost a LOT of power. So, then I advanced it farther than it was to start with to counteract the retard-effect I caused by setting my injection pressure higher and running the VO blend. The power was restored, but the knock is the same.

I then drained about a quart of oil, added about a quart of kerosene and about 1.5 ounces of xylene to the crankcase and ran that for about 10 minutes. Then I drained the oil pan (drivers side jacked up) for about an hour. (There was some pretty nasty goo coming out at the end.) I changed the filter and filled 'er up with a decent CJ-4 (non synthetic) oil. I took it for a test drive and after it got good and hot, the knock wasn't quite as hard/loud, but it was still there. I thought maybe the goo might've been clogging (or at least slowing) the oil pump.

I'm not exactly sure, but what I'm hearing may be a sticking valve. That's why my interest was again piqued in the possibility of vanadium buildup.

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Brian

2004 VW Beetle TDI - 65k mi.
2000 VW Jetta TDI - 147k mi.
1982 MB 300D Turbo - 336k mi.
SOLD - 1986 Isuzu P'up (NA) - 277k (+) mi.
1985 MB 300D Turbo - 183k mi.
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:09 am 
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Location: Durham,NC
Hello Brian. To my knowledge Elsbett has gone back to OEM Speck pop off recommendations. (this comes from some discussions I have had with friends that are European distributors of Elsbett kits.)

The "modern" information about advancing/retarding timing and diesel knock magnitude is, shall I say half true information. (from this point on in this discussion, lets replace the wording of diesel knock with peak cylinder pressure) Just as a reference point, lets say that the best auto ignition timing is 1° ATDC. Now lets say that your engine presently has a auto ignition timing of 4° ATDC. Advancing the timing from this retarded 4° ATDC will reduce peak cylinder pressure up until you pass 1° ATDC and get closer to TDC or before TDC.

To understand this relationship, we must look at the quantity of fuel in the chamber at the point of auto ignition......more fuel equals a bigger explosion and higher peak cylinder pressures.............peak pressure/temperature just from compression is at TDC and rapidly declinds ATDC.............now if the auto ignition timing is retarded, it takes longer for the fuel to reach auto ignition with declining pressure/temperature of compression..........the problem here is that the injector is still injecting fuel during this additional time and now we have more fuel in the chamber than needed.............

On setting the pop off at 1600 PSI, as long as you are not getting "splash back" of fuel onto the injector tip (tips developing a lot of carbon***) and you get the timing maximized, I do not think there will be any major problems?????

Brian and list members...........properly cleaning and setting the injectors is absolutely going to change the sound pitch of the diesel knock (as long as the timing is close to begin with) and you will be able to hear it at much higher rpm's than before...................instead of a dull knock, it will have a little "click and ring to it"

Let's go a step further with the "click and ring" sound. This sound is from the auto ignition of the fuel. Now, the injector typically injects fuels for about 25-30° of crank shaft rotation. Now, lets just say for reference that auto ignition takes place about 13° after the beginning of injection.........the total purpose of the fuel injected during this 13° is to have a auto ignition of just enough fuel to provide a flame/temperature that will ignite the remaining fuel injected after the13° period of the total injection period...........obviously, there is some power/energy going to the crank shaft from auto ignition, but by far the bulk of power/energy is provide after the first 13° to 45-50° after auto ignition........................

I do not recommend setting the timing by "ear" unless the injectors have been cleaned and set...................and even then, it not as accurate as using the glow plug readings...................
crossbones


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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:41 am 
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Location: Central NC (High Point)
Well, I know I need to use the glow plug method and in fact, I bought 4 of the $3 digital meters (200 mV scale) from HFT so I could watch all 4 cyls at once.

(I'll first check all 4 meters against the same source to verify they are all reading the same values or chart the errors if it's more than .5 mv.)

And of course I'm not the expert by any means, but now that I've been listening to it a lot over the past week, it sounds to me like it's only one cylinder (one valve???) doing this ticking sound.

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Brian

2004 VW Beetle TDI - 65k mi.
2000 VW Jetta TDI - 147k mi.
1982 MB 300D Turbo - 336k mi.
SOLD - 1986 Isuzu P'up (NA) - 277k (+) mi.
1985 MB 300D Turbo - 183k mi.
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:56 am 
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Location: Germantown (next to Elvistown), TN
You guys have me itching to get mine tuned right. First, the IP and injector overhaul...then the tuning...

Jack

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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:29 pm 
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
perkhouse

I believe that I may have the same noise that you are talking about. The noise I hear is somewhere at the back of the block, roughly oil filter location. It was there forever, and sounds like a ticking valve, but slightly heavier, though you can't really hear it at idle, but becomes noticeable from about 2200 rpm and up. Sometimes I can hardly hear it, sometimes it's quite noticeable. I don't like it, but it has never changed it's characteristics in 4 years, so I leave it alone, especially because the truck is my daily driver. Seems to me the first engine did it too.

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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:51 pm 
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Location: Central NC (High Point)
Hey Zack,

That does make me feel a little better, but... mine just started doing it about 3 weeks ago. Well, actually it did it once a few months ago while driving on the highway at about 65. I slowed down to about 50 and the noise went away... for awhile.

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Brian

2004 VW Beetle TDI - 65k mi.
2000 VW Jetta TDI - 147k mi.
1982 MB 300D Turbo - 336k mi.
SOLD - 1986 Isuzu P'up (NA) - 277k (+) mi.
1985 MB 300D Turbo - 183k mi.
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