Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

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bnemec
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Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby bnemec » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:55 pm

Hello, first post. Been searching for info on Isuzu diesel and specifically now about the Diesel Kiki IP. I'm sorry I don't have a P'up so I probably don't really belong here, but you all appear to be the most active and knowledgeable group. The engine I have is an Isuzu D201 (similar or same as di or si 2.2l) obviously different than what is in any P'up, but it looks like we run similar injection pump.

Onto my point, or problem of no throttle response, but it does respond to adjusting the fuel screw. The cover seal was leaking and not knowing much I checked around and no shop wanted to just do a seal and trying to get an estimate is tough, I understand why, the good shops stand behind their work and don't want to open up a pump and half fix it. So I decided to tackle it myself, looked up some instructions and found an engine manual that covered replacing that seal. Since I still hadn't learned where to look, I couldn't find a seal for it and made another, probably stupid, decision to just put thin bead of silicon sealant around the lid. After cleaning everything up I pulled the cover off and sure enough the old seal was hard and I could see where there may have been twists in it. But, in the process I made another dumb move, when removing the control arm to get to the back screw on the drive end of the pump I didn't mark the index of the throttle shaft to the control arm. So I dried everything off and got it sealed up, cover went on easily, sat over the alignment dowel nicely and snugged up the screws one at a time.

Couple days later I go to start it, after bleeding the injector lines it would only start if I pulled throttle to high stop, then it would not idle. I looked up the starting point for fuel screw and set it to ~.61" from end to face of nut I set that and still no joy, I screwed it in to where I had it set before removing the cover and it would start and idle. It had a lope at idle but was idling very low, but almost no response to pulling the throttle. I've set the control arm to several positions on the throttle shaft and notice a small change in effectiveness, but not much.

I took the return banjo fitting back off and I can see the little spring on the back side of the internal fuel level that the throttle control spring pulls on and can see that moving, but I don't get much movement on that fuel lever inside. I can move it with the fuel screw though. Also, adjusting the fuel screw will adjust idle from won't run to ~1000rpm, I'm afraid to do more than that because it doesn't seem right to control rpm with the fuel screw, I'm paranoid of runaway.

Before trying to fix this leak I had the engine running well for a year or so before, but was leaking fuel so bad it couldn't stay primed. When I put the engine into service I set low idle to ~900rpm and max to 2400 rpm with a photo tach and turned fuel screw in ~1.5 turns, I had it a little more but it got slow about returning to low idle so I backed it out a bit. As far as I can see nothing has changed outside the pump since it was running before.
When I set the fuel screw to a spot that it idles smooth it starts right away with it's usual puff of black smoke then idles smooth. I can only get a couple hundred rpm increase if I pull throttle to full speed.

BTW, is it ok to call it throttle? It's not really a throttle but I don't know what else to call it.

Thank you.

P.S. the cover seal is no longer leaking but I'm thinking I'll have to take it apart anyway... :roll:

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puttputtinpup
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby puttputtinpup » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:15 pm

I bought a seal kit for my c223 years ago from a diesel injection shop. It wasn't that much. Like $20 back then. I don't have my leftover parts anymore. Otherwise I'd give em to ya

I never-had mine apart, so can't help you there in that dept.

One of our 1st members here, Paul, knows these injection pumps like the back of his hand.

bnemec
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby bnemec » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:49 pm

[ Play Quicktime file ] 20190314_193202_1_1.mp4 [ 2.37 MiB | Viewed 153 times ]



Thank you putputinpup. I'm looking for a gasket kit online but nothing I was confident in quality. Open to suggestions.

I uploaded a video hope that it is helpful. I have another at higher rpm and shows that the governor responded to load when I hold hydraulic valve.

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puttputtinpup
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby puttputtinpup » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:14 pm


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puttputtinpup
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby puttputtinpup » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:17 pm

Bosch_VE_Pumps.pdf
(1.62 MiB) Downloaded 6 times

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puttputtinpup
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby puttputtinpup » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:20 pm

0709100749.jpg
0709100749.jpg (41.1 KiB) Viewed 142 times
One is for the csd (which you wont need), the other is for the pump.

bnemec
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby bnemec » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:58 pm

Thank you for the VE pump manual. I had downloaded a manual for the engine, it mentioned replacing the pump cover seal but not much more detail. I skimmed through it and reread the governing parts a couple times. I had the cover off for a while, (weeks :oops: ), would it be possible that the sliding sleeve got gummed up on the governor shaft? That would make it push on the governor spring and not let it move the collar, but yet the fuel screw would be able to move it slightly. Usually these flyweight governors have a pretty strong return spring so I didn't think that would be the case, but I'm studying the mechanism and looks possible. Any thoughts?
I'm done for today, hopefully I can get back at it tomorrow evening.

bnemec
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby bnemec » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:04 pm

On second thought, the governor may be working fine. I watched the full video that I took and when I load the engine by holding hydraulic valve on loader it sounds to me that it's holding rpm and gets a little louder which tells me the governor is moving to give more fuel. But I don't know.

I linked to youtube video, my second ever uploaded took me a bit to learn how. At 30 seconds you see the pressure gauge as I happen to need to check hydraulic pump health as well.

https://youtu.be/vfsLZHb05FY

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Paul
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby Paul » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:54 pm

bnemec - -

I think the fuel control spool is probably working OK as it does respond to the full load screw and the change in load.

That pretty much leaves the throttle control lever being mispositioned as the problem. Here is a method of positioning the throttle lever when you have lost the original marking (or failed to mark the lever).

-- release the external throttle return spring

-- undo the throttle shaft nut so that you can lift the lever from the splines

-- try to position the lever on the splines so that you can feel (internal) spring tension just beginning to come into play at 1/2 the travel from the idle stop to the full load stop

-- reassemble, and see if it is OK. If not quite right try moving the lever just one notch in the direction to correct the deficiency.

Note - - that when peeking into the fuel return hole, you should be able to see the internal fuel lever move forward and back as you move the throttle lever through its range.

If you still need a gasket kit the shop where I work (part time) can supply one. You can find our contact information in THIS thread.

Paul
'84 P'UP 2 wd diesel, 5 spd with 0.78 fifth gear and differential back to 3.73.

bnemec
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby bnemec » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:10 pm

Thank you Paul.
When I'm positioning the throttle control lever do I want to feel start of tension on the big spring or the little compression spring on the back side of the lever inside. I'll try to expand on that question. When I remove return line banjo from cover I can see the "retaining pin" #14 and "idle spring" #15 from pg24 of the manual putputinpup shared. Do I want that little compression spring #15 compressed or just engaging?
Also, the "tensioning lever" #3 is just tangent to the front (towards drive end) of the hole in cover. It doesn't move when the governor spring #13 stretches.

bnemec
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby bnemec » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:47 pm

"Note - - that when peeking into the fuel return hole, you should be able to see the internal fuel lever move forward and back as you move the throttle lever through its range."

I should state clearly that is not happening. It will move with fuel screw but not with throttle lever. Maybe just the slightest little bit.

I won't be able to work on it tonight unfortunately. I can drain the pump again, remove the return banjo and take a video showing the internals if that would help.

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Paul
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby Paul » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:15 am

bnemec wrote:Thank you Paul.
When I'm positioning the throttle control lever do I want to feel start of tension on the big spring or the little compression spring on the back side of the lever inside. I'll try to expand on that question. When I remove return line banjo from cover I can see the "retaining pin" #14 and "idle spring" #15 from pg24 of the manual putputinpup shared. Do I want that little compression spring #15 compressed or just engaging?
Also, the "tensioning lever" #3 is just tangent to the front (towards drive end) of the hole in cover. It doesn't move when the governor spring #13 stretches.


You need to feel the tension on the big spring that connects the link on the throttle shaft to the internal control lever. The internal control lever should move. If you cannot get any motion on the internal lever you probably should remove the pump cover again and take a look at what is going on. Check to see if the internal lever and fuel control spool can be moved.

The small spring that is visible through the return port is very light and will be compressed when making the tension test.

Paul
'84 P'UP 2 wd diesel, 5 spd with 0.78 fifth gear and differential back to 3.73.

bnemec
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby bnemec » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:41 pm

On it this afternoon, will post back with what learn.

Thank you.

bnemec
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby bnemec » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:32 pm

Took video of linkage before removing cover. The lever wasn't moving because it was resting on max travel pin.
https://youtu.be/5ItjDT8vKYM

Took video with cover off. The collar appears to be sliding freely with the lever. The start lever moves smoothly on the bigger lever. The bigger lever moves on the lever that the fuel screw pushes on. I'm wondering did I bend that little ball that moves the collar so it's idling when it should be revving?
https://youtu.be/X-Q2iU4VbgI

Used the scope again to get you a video of the back side of the collar. Does it look like it's too far forward?
https://youtu.be/dAznV8cxOcw

bnemec
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Re: Diesel Kiki pump on D201 no speed control

Postby bnemec » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:40 pm

Feeling frustrated and depressed at the same time I had a few beers, got courageous and started turning fuel screw in. I had gained confidence in the shutoff solenoid to stop a runaway. So I turned the fuel screw in until I could get my 2400 rpm with control lever at high idle stop. Which is quite a bit further than I read as a starting point. It seems to be idling too high with low idle screw all the way back. I think I'll try adjusting the control arm one spline.

I don't know if I just didn't have fuel screw in far enough all along, or if something's not right and it's compensating with aggressive fuel screw adjustment. Still uneasy about just cranking the fuel screw in, when I first set up this engine a couple years ago I turned it up little at a time and at one point it wouldn't come down off full rpm, since then I'm cautious with it.