Electro Magnetic Pulse

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trainbrainmike
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Electro Magnetic Pulse

Postby trainbrainmike » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:16 pm

I have a bone stock 1984 PUP with 4 cylinder diesel engine. My question is whether there are any computer controlled functions that might be harmed from the EMP, whether from "Rocket Man" or the sun ?

This is a FARM USE vehicle,( In VA, does not require inspections ) low miles for age, starts and runs like a top.
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Quahlity
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Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

Postby Quahlity » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:42 pm

The ECU in my 92 gas truck is pretty well protected by the metal casing, but a big enough pulse will enter it through the wires, and it doesn't take much to make them useless. The sun is unlikely to hit us with a pulse like that, and if it were to, would more than likely wipe out mankind (at least on one side of the planet), and the rest would follow shortly thereafter. A "man-made" pulse would be more localized, and if you were in it's range would likely destroy all semi-conductor based technology. This was the plot of Dark Angel BTW.

I'm not really answering your question though. I'm not sure how much semi-conductor technology is in an 84 diesel, but my guess is none, and the engine would likely chug along happily. Just my opinion.

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Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

Postby JoeIsuzu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:49 pm

Worst case, let’s suppose the big EMP fries the glow controller, battery, and all diodes etc. If you could get it started (and stopped) without any electrical systems, it would run without any problems. It’s do-able. ;)

Jack

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Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

Postby jamezg » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:57 pm

Beat me to it.


Could knockout the glow plug controller, but dido on what Quahlity said.
The glow plug controller is all analog, anything that could blow it up would likely be massive and the engine would keep chugging along.
It just would not start if cold.
You could replace the controller with a push button.
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Quahlity
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Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

Postby Quahlity » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:30 am

There are diodes (semi-conductors) in the alternator, so your charging system would certainly stop working.

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Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

Postby Dinger95 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:52 am

Quahlity,
Wiping out half the people depends on location and level of the CME, look up the Carrington Event.
That did not wipe out half the planet, though it did electrocute a few telegraph folks.

A similar event today would make the grid go dark for at least 2-3 years, assuming more manufacturing of equipment does not come online or get taken out by the CME itself.
-- Dinger95

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Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

Postby Quahlity » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:47 pm

Wiping out half the people depends on location and level of the CME


Hi Dinger95,
I agree I was really overstating that. Caulk it up to being overzealous.

I should have said something closer to
but if it were big enough, could wipe out mankind

replacing
and if it were to, would more than likely wipe out mankind


I enjoyed reading about the Carrington Event, thanks for that. I image a similar event would cause such a chaos to our communications and transportation infrastructure, it would effect things such as food, materials, fuel delivery and the ability to pay for anything. It would very unhappy times. Hopefully we'd recover quickly (whatever that means).

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Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

Postby 85PUPDSL » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:04 pm

As I recall, the only "solid-state" components in my 1969 Plymouth Road Runner were what was in the radio and six diodes in the alternator.
We have come a long way since!

Denny
Original owner/ 85 P'up DSL NA 5-Speed Long Bed 2WD

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Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

Postby 85PUPDSL » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:21 pm

Original owner/ 85 P'up DSL NA 5-Speed Long Bed 2WD

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Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

Postby assquatch20 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:20 pm

I can't say I've read the above assessment, but I believe I have learned from its derivatives. I think it was ORNL that did some experiments with a late 80's/early 90's gasoline ECU with FI, coil-on-plug, etc. In their case it was found that only the smallest ancillaries and PCB's burned out under EMP conditions, leaving the vehicle operable. I believe the only thing protecting it was the standard ABS plastic shroud, or maybe some epoxy potting. While I used to worry about this sort of thing (heck, it's why I like mechanical pump diesels, multifuel... I'm sure I'm not alone here) it would seem it's been blown out of proportion. Things like turn signal relays and LED lighting (if equipped) would go first. With enough small harnesses holding their own small fusible links like that, ready to burn, it's actually protecting the thicker stuff to a degree. With some highly directed pulse, such as something "weaponized" it would be tougher to withstand. Pretty much anything with moving electrons generates some amount of electromagnetic radiation, but the static of your clothes, while an EMP, isn't the kind you're concerned with. What you're looking for is duration and intensity. Most EMP's get the P because it's extremely short duration, but high enough intensity to burn things up. Not enough to hurt a person usually, but potentially enough to fry fine circuitry.

The voltage regulator would possibly go, still stands a good chance of survival. Even with this and the GP harness burned up I'd think a steep hill would be enough to get moving. Shutting the engine off, however, may require manually cutting fuel supply. I should be clear though; this is very unlikely.

Without writing a book here, if what you're worried about actually happened, thick gauges of wire burning out from electricity in the air, you'll probably have larger issues. If harm was the intention, it would be the impending fallout to really worry about, not anyone trying to immobilize you. If it's intentional, you have equally insurmountable issues, like the wasteful technology pointed at your vehicle. Someone is after you specifically in this case, and they have enough money to use a wildly inefficient means of stopping you, so they probably have projectiles as well. An EMP is not a good way of going about this, from an offensive point-of-view. The nuclear device that just so happens to make an EMP would be better at bringing a population to a halt.

Actually now that I think about it, the M38A1 my 4FB1 is going into could be equipped to fire an M388 nuclear projectile up to 2.5 miles using a "Davy Crockett" recoilless rifle. Though those gas engines used a generator and oldschool ignition (iirc) I do believe they were successfully tested up to about 1.5 miles. Still unsure if the rounds tested actually generated an EMP, but nuclear weapons isn't really my niche. I only mention this, though, to highlight how at least in the analog days, we'd rather make an area impassable for a few days with radioactive isotopes than by pulling the power. That said, it would also be safer to just digitally shut down power stations nowadays than by force. Not too different for the fuel delivery anymore. Much of it is automated and you could reroute massive amounts of oil before being detected. An EMP as a weapon would be a cleanup weapon, for frontline infantry, after attack and invasion. Projectiles are still needed. The only EMP-based weapon I know of is nonlethal, and it's essentially just a heat gun for crowd dispersal.

However, if it's a random EMP from the sun, you're playing with a lot of luck. Assuming you just want the vehicle to survive, it's very possible, depending on its charge (is it running?) and storage (wet in the open? inside a Faraday cage?) that it could do fine. Your body, though, faces more costly dangers with such a high charge in the air. The EM radiation alone, if it didn't burn you, could cause a lot of mutations. I've known linemen to develop internal organ cancers after a few decades working on transformers. The wrong solar flare could do that damage in an instant. And let's hope you don't have a pacemaker. It's got the kinda circuitry you're concerned about, but it ain't running a turn signal.

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Re: Electro Magnetic Pulse

Postby Dinger95 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:40 pm

Well here is a little snippet for the report 85pupdsl linked, so a Carrington Event or larger hitting continental US would be very very very bad.

"There are about 2,000 such transformers rated at or above 345 kV in the United States
with about 1 percent per year being replaced due to failure or by the addition of new
ones. Worldwide production capacity is less than 100 units per year and serves a world
market, one that is growing at a rapid rate in such countries as China and India. Delivery
of a new large transformer ordered today is nearly 3 years, including both manufacturing
and transportation."

So at current capacity if all of the transformers were fried, it would be 20 years to replace them all assuming the manufacturing plants don't get taken out directly / in-directly from it and all capacity is used to replace US infrastructure.
-- Dinger95


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